Subject: Re: The "user-developer gap" myth Path: lobby!newstf02.news.aol.com!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsfeed.mathworks.com!cyclone.swbell.net!nnrp2.sbc.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <395B90BD.37008F17@swbell.net> From: Rubywand Reply-To: rubywand@swbell.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.apple2 References: <20000623222201.27996.00000171@NG-FM1.AOL.COM> <3957BAFD.1089137D@swbell.net> <3958d864.329507237@news> <395924BE.75F7C640@dcnet2000.com> <395a3b3b.420359426@news> <395B2310.3A43C16A@swbell.net> <395B60C9.632486E7@inetnebr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 236 Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 13:09:01 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.62.142.132 X-Complaints-To: abuse@swbell.net X-Trace: nnrp2.sbc.net 962302148 216.62.142.132 (Thu, 29 Jun 2000 13:09:08 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 13:09:08 CDT Organization: SBC Internet Services Roy and/or Janet Miller wrote: > > Rubywand wrote: > .... > > Messages that are personally abusive or that give notice of where to find > software and other copyrighted materials that have not been verified as > being released for free distribution, yes, messages like that are erased, > and people who are abusive of others, like what is seen in this post, > are made to feel unwelcome, or even "locked out". Well, here is a snip from one of the two forums: ____________________________________ From: Stan Sztaba (SSZTABA) Apr-6 8:14 pm Now that the Beagle Compiler is freeware, I would like to adapt some ampersand programs to work with it. .... BTW, what is the difference between an OBJ filetype program and a CMD filetype program ?? Would I be able to load a CMD program into Merlin so as to begin trying to adapt it to work with the Beagle Compiler ?? ____________________________________ Here is a snip from the answer: ____________________________________ From: SiFan May-4 10:34 pm To: Stan Sztaba (SSZTABA) .... Hi, Stan, Good places to find help with programming include the comp.sys.apple2.programmer newsgroup and the Csa2P FAQs at http://home.swbell.net/rubywand/csa2pfaq.html . .... >> BTW, what is the difference between an OBJ filetype program and a CMD filetype program ?? Would I be able to load a CMD program into Merlin so as to begin trying to adapt it to work with the Beagle Compiler ?? << A Beagle CMD file? Not sure. (I have not used the Beagle compiler.) It would probably be the BASIC program in text form for editing (i.e. a source file). An OBJ file produced by a BASIC compiler is usually the program in binary executable form (the finished product). It may, technically, be a BASIC file; but, it is really machine code with a BASIC statment prefix which does a CALL. (Again, not sure about this specific compiler.) The best way to integrate Merlin-produced code into a Beagle BASIC compiled program would probably be to create the assembly code using Merlin and test it with the plain (uncompiled) BASIC program. For example, the BASIC program could BLOAD the binary code and use it by doing CALLs. Once the uncompiled BASIC program works, you could use the Beagle compiler to create a compiled version which BLOADs the Merlin-generated binary or, maybe, which includes the binary (i.e. in the OBJ file). ____________________________________ Here are snips from the followups by the forum's "gurus": ____________________________________ From: EWANNOP May-5 3:13 am To: SiFan unread .... In message 'Ampersand prgrms & Beagle Compiler' SIFAN said: > Good places to find help with programming include the > comp.sys.apple2.programmer newsgroup and the Csa2P FAQs at > { Be aware that you will need flame proof clothing if you venture into any of the CSA2 newsgroups to avoid being burned by Turley and the Turlettes. I have found also that the CSA2 FAQs often have information that does not give the full story, or is just plain incorrect. Attempts are made from time to time to get them corrected, but the errors seem to persist. .... ____________________________________ and ____________________________________ From: PETERWATSON May-7 9:38 am To: EWANNOP unread .... To be fair, Turley et al are rarely (if ever) seen on the comp.sys.apple2.programmer group. Probably because it's too easy to be caught in an "inaccuracy"... .... ____________________________________ plus ____________________________________ From: Sheppy May-9 6:17 pm To: PETERWATSON .... Isn't that code for "stupidity?" ____________________________________ > Civil discourse is enforced there. The only civil discourse in the above comes from the guy who asked the question and the one who made some attempt to supply a useful answer. The forum gurus just supply a stream of smart-ass comments and insults (after the person who answered the question had been locked out). Also notice the dating. Stan posted his question on 6 April (2000). It went without a response until noticed by Si on a rare visit to the forum nearly a month later. In this particular case, the supposedly offensive posting was not deleted (probably because it was the only answer Stan received on the forum). .... > Why don't they mention forums that have heavy traffic .... That should be obvious from the quoted example. No one who cares about promoting interest in Apple II computing would send someone to such a place. As for the "heavy traffic", much of it is empty chit chat such as is quoted above. > > > I've lost count of the number of > > posted and emailed complaints; but, at some point, one just has to say > > 'enough is enough'. Sending any enthusiastic new Apple II user to such > > places is a disservice. > > But many new, enthusiastic Apple ][ users do go there, .... A few do; and, they get put down and/or sent off on a wild goose chase the moment they ask about finding a favorite oldie game. Most of the chat comes from the same small bunch. (Which, on a Delphi forum, is typical. It's the rudeness and disinterest in being helpful which is not typical.) > and are made to feel > welcome and given help, except for help to find copyrighted materials > that have not been released for free distribution. Since the materials are available for free download, not informing newbies who want to find some old game or utility seems a bit unkind. .... > > > Probably, given the "close knit" nature of the clique which runs the two > > forums, there is no way to boot the bozos responsible for killing them > > (pretty much the same way they have bombed KFest). If you can't dump > > the dopes, your best bet for running a successful Apple II Programmers' > > forum on Delphi is to start your own and make sure the screwups do not > > get Assistant status. > > But Rubywand's forum isn't very successful, and he's followed that formula, as > least in his own light. Rubywand's forum is there chiefly as a link to Csa2 and the Csa2 FAQs. However, now that you bring up the idea, perhaps we could schedule some chats! > > bobryan, please note the "restraint" and "respectful" language used to refer to > Jeff Blakeney, Eric Shepherd, Joe Kohn, et al. Do you see why some "vogons" (more > "respectful" speech - right?) respond with similar or even worse retorts. This > kind of personal abuse has gone on for years, and has driven a number of people, > not out of csa2, but out of the Apple ][ community. > Hmmmmm, that sounds like a complaint. If it is, please contact the Csa2 Public Relations Manager, Beverly Cadieux. In any case, the most notable 'recent' departure was that of my predecessor, the former FAQs Keeper, Nathan. He wiped his hard disk and departed immediately after a heated argument on _A2-Delphi_ (something about his messages being deleted), more than a week after his last posting to Csa2. Rubywand