Subject: Re: A2 Trade/Swap ... site ...
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From: Rubywand <rubywand@swbell.net>
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Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 12:21:07 -0500
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Roy and/or Janet Miller writes ...
> 
> Paul Schlyter wrote:
> 
> > I once saw someone else draw a line here, which I found pretty sensible:
> > if the software has been for sale somewhere during the last 5 years,
> > you should either buy it, or leave it alone.
>

     A very reasonable, common sense guideline.

 
> Ah, but there part of the problem.... There are places, such as Sun Remarketing,
> who still sell old Apple 2 software, such as the Atari games, and products from
> Quark (at one time including Catalyst which is a fine program launcher). So, how
> do you know if that product is still being sold.
> 
> Next, what about the *used* software market? There are a lot of programs out
> there, and not just at thrift stores, that are being bought and sold on the net
> and at swap meets.

     Doesn't matter. Apple II users are under no obligation to support
swappers and other assorted speculators in ancient software.

     Most oldies speculators 'know the score', have known it for years. They
know that the value of what they have to sell is chiefly in the original
packaging, original diskettes, etc.. If they can not sell the value they
have, too bad.

     Every long-time user has taken major hits in the value of his/her Apple
II property, skills, and related investments. There is no point in trying to
argue that speculators should get a free ride.


> 
> Finally, there is a pattern here that only takes a few weeks on csa2 to learn.
> Someone mentions a site from which one can obtain software. Jeff points out that
> some/much/most of the software on the site is still covered by the copyright
> laws
 ....

> Jeff has stated that he will not stop what he sees as his
> mission, to alert newbies and the uninformed that, should they care, there is a
> danger of copyright violation in using such sites.

     There is no "danger" of a copyright violation-- a technical "violation"
is a near certainty. Since practically everyone knows this, Jeff B's
"mission" amounts to nothing more than pestering, annoying behavior.

     What Jeff B never mentions is ...

o- there is no "anti-piracy" or other law against uploading or downloading
   the old software; agreeing to, ignoring, or halting any perceived
violation
   is up to the rights owner

o- rights owners benefit from having their oldies available for downloading

o- of the hundreds (maybe thousands) of rights owners with software on these
   sites, the number who have requested that a product be removed is probably
   less than ten.




> "Vogons" are not so dumb as
> to think that they will change the minds of Tom, Rudy, Ruby, et al,

     Unfortunately for the vogon anti-archive wrecker types, the "et al"
includes most of the Apple II users in the known universe. Pestering us,
especially pestering us with bogus arguments, is definitely dumb.


> or vice versa.

     Since the people you are calling "vogons" do not have a coherent ethical
or legal position-- like when has Jeff B ever slammed his vogon pal's Bernie
site for promoting ROM code rip-offs?-- there is always a chance of change
based upon pure self-interest. 


> If you want this to be a more peaceful place, why not let Jeff make his
> quiet announcement/warning, and then let it go?

     Because it is wrong to tell new users that downloading ancient software
is illegal or harmful and to try to make them feel like thieves.

     Because it is wrong to sabotage the only remaining real value of their
properties left to rights owners-- i.e. promotion of current products (e.g.
the Ultima series), promotion of programming skills (e.g. via game credits),
some small measure of fame, and the enjoyment which comes in knowing that
your work is still bringing pleasure to others.

     Because it is irresponsible and dangerous to try to convince Apple II
users that they are all "pirates". Should people like Jeff B ever succeed,
the result will not be an end to downloading of old wares. It will be the
creation of real pirate sites and the downloading of everything, including
current commercial software.



> He doesn't dog people and nag them about copyright laws,

     Yes, he does. Even worse, he (and you) nag people about breaking laws
which do not even exist.


> he knows, as we all do, that people will violate
> those laws if they wish,

     We all know no such thing. The "law" you talk about is fantasy.

     All a copyright does is establish a property right. Taking liberties
with a copyrighted property "violates" the copyright, not the law. It is up
to the rights owner to decide whether the violation is okay and ignore it or
that it is not okay and request/insist that the violation cease.


> and that though there are penalties,

     There are no penalties for violating a copyright on property with
virtually zero commercial value unless the copyright owner objects, takes you
to court, and somehow manages to demonstrate a loss due to your actions.
Then, the penalty will be to pay some amount related to the loss.

     As observed earlier, virtually all owners benefit from the free
availability of their old software to users. So, you can forget about
"penalties" for users.

     On the other hand, someone who, with no legal standing, claims to act on
behalf of owners, libels archives, and succeeds in eliminating free access to
old software could be in real trouble. This self-appointed 'champion of
owners rights' could be taken to court and sued for loss of promotional value
of the property.


> it is unlikely, even if possible, that anyone will go
> to jail or pay a fine for copying "Choplifter."

     True; but, someone may soon be lynched for coming up with goofy
examples.
     

> 
> Really, in many ways, this situation is like one person tapping someone on the
> shoulder who is about to jaywalk, and to inform them quietly that that is
> against the law, and that there are penalties for it.
 ....

     Granted, aside from the fact that violating a copyright is not illegal,
there are similarities. Anyone (except a policeman) who warns an adult that
he/she is about to jaywalk qualifies as a genuine busybody.


> If no one else jumped in, that would be the end of it.
 ....

     If the guys 'warning' everyone minded their own business and ceased
gushing nonsense, there would be no problem in the first place.



Rubywand