Subject: Re: //e, //c, //gs Questions
From: Chad Choi Lin <chadlin@nyetcom.com>
Date: Wed, Oct 21, 1998 2‚32(H
Message-id: <362DA9CE.26B6@nyetcom.com>

Maynard Lilac wrote:

> I recently bought a number of Apple computers, monitors and disk
> drives. I have an Apple //e, a //c and a //gs.

Damn, but that's an awesome array of Apple II systems! Wish I could
afford to start my own collection, but even if money was not an issue I
wouldn't have enough room for them all....

> I also have 4 different monitors. One is a 9 inch monochrome model
> that came with the //c.

Have one of those myself (I originally got it with my //c). Its only
virtue is the fact that it displays 80-column text without any loss of
clarity -- unless you're *really* short on desk space, like me, because
that is one tiny monitor!

> Another is called an Apple Monitor ///.

That would have been the unit that Apple Computer marketted for its
first big flop, the Apple /// (if you never heard of that system, it is
precisely because it was a failure). I have no idea if it is compatible
with any of the //-series computers.

> Another is simply called an Apple Monitor and came with the //e.

That would have been the //e version of the //c Monitor: it was a green
monochrome video display that supported the 80-column text display (you
can hook up a //e to a television, but in 80-column mode the screen will
look fuzzy). At least the screen size is larger than the incredibly
small //c model.

> The last one came with the //gs and seems like a slightly smaller
> version of the standard Mac 13 inch RGB monitor.

YOU LUCKY SON OF A GUN!! Keep that monitor and care for it well, because
it is *not* like a Mac monitor (despite outward appearances).

> I also have an assortment of external drives, both 5.25 and 3.5
> inch. I'd like to ask a bunch of questions about these systems if
> I may.
> 
> Operating Systems:
> 
> What operating systems will run on these 3 Apples?

Generally, you have these few choices available to you:

1.)  Apple DOS 3.3
     Usually referred to simply as "DOS 3.3" or just "DOS", this is the
last version of the original Disk Operating System written by Apple
before it made the move to ProDOS. Anything earlier than version 3.3
will not run on a //c or IIGS (though I believe you can still run such
versions of DOS on a //e) so you'll probably want to focus only on DOS
3.3, if anything.
     The main advantage of DOS is that a massive amount of Apple II
software was written specifically for that operating system, so using
DOS allows you to enjoy those programs. Unfortunately, DOS was only
designed for the single-sided 5.25-inch floppy disks used by the Disk II
drives, so you'll be limitted to a storage capacity of about 140K per
disk (unless you flip your disks over to use the other side, which is
not very convenient). While there are patches and even entire upgrade
versions of DOS that exist, none of them were officially endorsed or
supported by Apple. (One notable example is UniDOS, which is supposed to
let users run DOS 3.3 software off of the 3.5-inch UniDisk drive
system.) Probably the biggest complaint about DOS is that it is *slow*
when it comes to actual disk operations, so much so that the joke phrase
"same-day service" seems to have been coined just for DOS.

2.)  Apple ProDOS / ProDOS 8
     This is the Officially Sanctioned Sequel to DOS, and is in fact
widely used. Though many aspects of ProDOS (which stands for
Professional DOS) are vast improvements over its predecessor -- for
example, it permits the use of alphanumeric labels for disks, creation
of subdirectories, automatic time/date stamping of files, and the usage
of drive systems other than the Apple Disk II 140K format -- it does
have its drawbacks. For one thing, it requires at least 64K RAM and
Applesoft BASIC in ROM in order to work (for a //e or later model,
however, this is no problem). Another quirk is that it has *less*
freedom of chosing filenames (fifteen characters maximum, and no spaces
are allowed) than DOS has (up to thirty characters, including spaces).
And, most importantly, many DOS programs simply won't run under ProDOS
because they trade too heavily on the specific location and function of
certain memory addresses in DOS.
     By The Way, this was later named "ProDOS 8" when Apple introduced a
16-bit version of ProDOS for the IIGS.

3.)  Apple ProDOS 16, later GS/OS
     The debut of the much-vaunted IIGS ("GS" standing for Graphics and
Sound) was a watershed for the Apple II community. Although it featured
an 8-bit emulation mode for running the older Apple II software, it was
really designed to be a true 16-bit computer. Naturally, this demanded a
16-bit operating system.
     Here I must beg inexperience, for my knowledge of the IIGS and its
software is severely limitted. Suffice to say that, if you have a IIGS,
you *must* get GS/OS for your system (ProDOS 16 is now too old to be of
any value when compared to its later versions).

4.)  Apple Pascal
     This is a much less popular choice, because it is really for Apple
Pascal programming and not much else. If you intend to do some serious
software development on your Apple II computers, assembly language is a
must, and can be done with all previously mentioned operating systems.

5.)  CP/M  ;-)
     Now this is *really* obscure, and might even seem like a silly
joke. But I distinctly remember seeing an advertisement in an Apple II
magazine (back in the 1980s, of course) for a Z80 processor upgrade that
Applied Engineering sold for the //c. It was actually part of a memory
expansion kit, but it supposedly would allow the user to run CP/M on an
Apple! Seeing that CP/M has pretty much become one with the dust of
history, however, this is probably a moot point to bring up.

> I had a //+ back in the early 80s and can recall certain
> programs written in BASIC running without loading any
> operating system.

If my memory serves me correctly, that would only be possible if you
were using a tape cassette drive. All the Apple II models up to and
including the //e (the original version of that particular model) could
use tape cassettes for loading and storing data, but starting with the
//c all that changed. Basically speaking, if you want to use any type of
disk medium with your Apples then you *must* have an OS of some kind to
run the disk drives.

> I still have a lot of my old programs and games for the
> //+ and was curious if these would work with the //e, the
> //c and the //gs.

The most accurate answer to that is, "Not always ....but usually." I
would hazard to say that most of your II+ software will run fine on your
newly acquired systems, with the cautionary note that you will probably
have greater success running your programs on the //e than on the //c or
IIGS (because the //e is more closely "related" to the II+).

> Can the //c and //gs use some Mac OSs?

Absolutely NOT! The Macintrash <insane grin> is based on an entirely
different architecture (the Motorola 68000 processor series) which just
about completely rules out running Mac software on an Apple II platform.
However, there are some important things to note:

1.)  This does not mean you cannot run Apple II software on a Mac! As
any of our newsgroup regulars can testify, there are many ways to
emulate the Apple II on a Mac system (and the same applies to IBM PCs!)
if you have a mind to. Personally, I prefer The Real Thing, but that's
just my opinion....

2.)  This also does not rule out using a Mac-like user interface on an
Apple II. Though they are hard to come by, there are several programs
(such as GEOS and UniDesk [did I remember that name correctly?]) that
provide the graphics delights of a Mac OS on an enhanced //e (128K RAM
or more, plus 80-column video hardware) or //c. And the IIGS system
software normally includes a remarkably Mac-style graphical environment
(in fact, I think it is called the Finder, just like the original Mac
user interface).

> System Expansion:
> 
> Are expansion cards interchangable between the //+, //e
> and //gs?

Again, my limitted exposure to the IIGS prevents me from giving a
definitive answer. Theoretically, all Apple II models equipped with
expansion slots ought to work with the same expansion boards and upgrade
cards -- BUT my suspicion is that this is often not true.

> Can the //c be expanded at all?

Yes -- IF you have a Revision B motherboard //c or later. I may be
mistaken, but I believe that the first version of the //c had absolutely
no expansion options (there was no way to increase the original 128K of
RAM, and it would only work with an External Disk //c drive). Following
that original model, Apple introduced a UniDisk-compatible //c, and
later a memory-expandable //c. (Then came the IIc+, but that's almost in
a class by itself.)
     In almost every case, upgrade equipment for the //c must be
designed *especially* for the //c, and are often specific to the
particular version of that model. Fortunately, there is an easy way to
find out which //c you have:

1.)  Boot up your computer (or reboot it by hitting
<Open-Apple>-<Ctrl>-<Reset>)

2.)  Hit <Ctrl>-<Reset> to break into the Applesoft BASIC prompt

3.)  Type the following BASIC line and press <Return>

     PRINT PEEK(64447)

If the displayed number is 255, you have the original //c (sorry!)
If it is 0, you have the UniDisk-compatible version
If it is 3, you have the memory-expandable version

(This is straight out of the IIc Technical Reference Manual, the Holy
Bible for //c programmers)

> What type of cards are used with these computers (like
> ISA for PCs and NuBus for Macs)? Can any of these
> systems use hard drives? Which of these systems allow
> memory expansion?

I don't even know what the official designation for an Apple II
expansion board is, but I'm almost completely certain that only Apple
II-specific boards will work. As far as hard drives go, even the //c can
use one (but again comes the stipulation that it must be a
//c-compatible unit). The IIGS is by far the most favorable system in
this regard, as you can install an IDE controller card to use
IDE-standard hard drives and other storage devices (such as the Iomega
100Mb Zip drive). I've also heard that the IIGS can use SCSI equipment
as well. Apart from certain limitations with the //c, all your Apple II
systems should be upgradable as far as memory is concerned -- and, once
more, the IIGS enjoys the greatest advantage (it can address more than
4Mb of RAM if you install it).

> Monitors:
> 
> All these computers have a video port on the back
> which seems to be a simple RCA port for monochrome
> video. The //c and //gs have an additional 15 pin Mac-
> like video port. I only have one monochrome video
> cable and was wondering if I could use standard RCA
> video cabling to connect my various monitors to these
> computers.

As far as I know, that RCA connector delivers a line-level video signal
compatible with a standard NTSC monitor. This means that any TV monitor
(a TV set that has a VIDEO IN jack) will hook up to any Apple II with a
perfectly normal RCA male-to-male video patch cable. Another Apple II
user that I know, using a //c, hooked up an old Commodore color monitor
to his system and got beautiful results (though the display still looked
fuzzy in 80-column mode). You should have little difficulty as well.

> Can the //c and //gs, since they have the Mac-like RGB
> port, use Mac monitors?

I doubt it, since the Mac video system has more lines of resolution than
even the IIGS could handle. There is an RGB-to-VGA adapter for the //c,
but that's only for using an IBM PC-style VGA color monitor.

> Can the smallish RGB monitor which came with the //gs
> be used on a Mac?

Yes, but with such inferior results that you probably shouldn't bother
trying.

> Requisitioning:
> 
> Where would I be able to find various Apple components and old programs
> and OSs for these Apple computers? I've seen a couple web sites which
> have some older Apple // stuff for sale, but they seemed very expensive.
> Also, if anyone could point me to some good Apple // web sites which
> offer nearly endless amounts of info on these systems I would be very
> grateful.

While there are other dealers, many of which I am sure are good outfits,
the one that I recommend you check out first is Alltech Electronics.
They are highly regarded in the Apple II community, and they can
probably ship to you whatever products you want. I got my ImageWriter II
(refurbished), my //c+ 1Mb RAM upgrade, and various parts and supplies
from them (including software and 5.25-inch floppies -- getting hard to
find nowadays!) over the past several years. You can find their website
at this URL:

     http://www.allelec.com/

> Thanks for taking the time to read my many questions.
> 
> Maynard

It is our pleasure, and welcome to the newsgroup!

-- 
Peace, Love, and Apple II Forever!
Chad Choi Lin
chadlin@nyetcom.com